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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:19 pm

I swear, I have done more research for this one story...

Right now I'm looking up data on ciphers and cryptograms.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:44 pm

o.o

Wow. COlor me impressed :D
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:28 pm

Also been researching drugs and various technological advances in the late nineteenth century in England. For authenticity's sake.

I am ON this bitch.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:01 pm

Opium is where it was at back in ye late 19th century england
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:41 am

Yup, although at the time frame I'm working in, aspirin had just been invented as well.

I'm also researching how they investigated crimes back then; they did have cameras, but the really old kind, and it wasn't until the Whitechapel murders that they really started using them to photograph certain things at crime scenes.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:36 am

Ah, good point. Foresnics was an early art at best, tho Holmes was pretty much the pioneer. They did a lot of footprint matching tho, if I remember right
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:32 am

Holmes also thought of fingerprinting, although he didn't have the fancy shmancy matching software today's forensic people do. I'm trying to remain as true to canon as possible; I'm glad I'm re-reading the books, because that'll give me better ideas I hope.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:23 am

Hehe, yeah, going back to the source material has got to be beneficial to all this ^^
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:09 pm

Been having fun re-reading the stories. I continually find myself getting blindsided by some technology I thought they DIDN'T have which they actually DID, so it's definitely helpful in that regard. Telephones for instance; although I doubt they were plentiful, but some people did have them. And gaslights inside the house, plus some electricity items. It's been really interesting reading more about Holmes himself as well; I find myself paying attention to various personality quirks in the hopes that I can weave elements of that into the way I'm portraying him. Right now, I'm trying to find a happy medium between the way Downey Jr. portrayed him and the minor differences I'm finding in the stories. I hope I succeed in that regard.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:11 am

Ive started in on the stories as well (all you're fault!). The thing that keeps catching me off guard is the Underground. I had no clue that the London Underground was already running in the late 1800's. The gas lights I had expected, but trains, underground? nope. That just threw me for a loop.

Anywho, with the level of research you seem to be doing, I think you'll be able to strike a solid balance between the two Holmes'
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Mon Jan 16, 2012 5:32 pm

Hey, I will happily take the blame if it means that good literature gets read. :D

The whole technology thing is actually pretty important to the story; it'd be kind of silly to have Holmes be wholly unaware of some technological advance's early version and then be amazed at its modern counterpart if there actually WERE some precursor to the item in question in existence in his time. I have to remember that I'm setting the London part of this story at the very end of the nineteenth century, in 1897 (I believe, according to the stories themselves, he and Watson first met in the early part of the 1880s, so they would have known each other for at least ten years at this point), and as a result, the Industrial Revolution was just starting up and there'd be a lot more technological advances than otherwise.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:53 pm

*nod* Holmes and Watson met in 1882. Most of the first set of holmes short stories are set in the years 1882-90, IIRC.

I can see what you mean about the whole 'not being super surprised by <insert technological advance here>. But with Holmes, I don't honestly think he'd be truly surprised by anything :) He might marvle, but if anyone could be plucked from one time and dumped into our day and just shrug his shoulders and carry on, it'd be Sherlock Holmes
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:53 pm

Yeah, that's the way I'm intending to portray him, for the most part; one thing I've always thought about Holmes is that he keeps his emotions very close to his chest though, so my personal thought is that there are some things (computers for instance, or televisions) that would amaze and astound him (there aren't many similar technological advances to either of those in the late nineteenth century), but he'd be unwilling to show any sort of weakness and so would conceal his reaction. Given that I'm writing this at least partially from his perspective (I tend to switch back and forth between him and Annika, to get different points of view; I've also tossed a bit of Watson or his wife Maddie in the mix), I'd allude to his amazement in his thoughts, but keep his physical reaction rather subdued, with only a few small tells in his actions to let those who know him well know how he truly feels.

It's sort of like how Watson kind of constantly sought Holmes' approval throughout the series of stories; he learned to interpret a lot of small, almost unnoticeable clues from Holmes that told him whether he had done well or poorly. He also learned to read Holmes' affection for him, despite Holmes professing a lack of more tender emotions for anyone (i.e. "he never spoke of the softer passions, save with a gibe and a sneer", although that line was meant more for romantic love than friendly feelings; the sentiment applies though, in my opinion). My intent is to have Annika be observant enough to see those small tells in his behavior in place of Watson when the two of them travel forward, so that in that respect she replaces Watson in the future in a way; first as Holmes' friend, and then later as a person whom he feels something more passionate for.

That's not to imply that I think Holmes had a "thing" for Watson, as a lot of researchers and later adaptations of the characters have apparently implied; merely that I think that, given how devoted Watson was to Holmes and how assiduously he tried to learn the techniques Holmes imparted to him, if Watson had been a woman from the start, Holmes might very well have at one point developed feelings for her. I doubt he'd have ever acted upon them, mind, but I certainly think it's possible.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:20 pm

THe more i read the holmes novels, the more i agree. If Watson had been a chick, since Watson is one of hte few people Holmes truly respects and enjoys the company of, then yeah, Holmes just might have wanted more then a polite friendship from a Jane Watson, so to speak....that oculd be a fun fanfic....hmm, actually, I'm sure there are a ton of fanfics out there for that already :p
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:27 pm

Most of them have Holmes and Watson together all right... as GUYS.

*shudder*

Don't get me wrong; a well written gay fic is great, but not if you're using someone else's characters to do something that their creator never intended them to do, including acting in a manner outside of their stated sexuality.

Watson liked women. Period. End of story. I cannot ever picture the man having a sexual relationship with another man because he was constantly noticing women; he was more apt to pay attention to the pretty faces than the cases they were bringing to Holmes. I'm re-reading Hound of the Baskervilles right now, and there's a pretty neighbor girl who's the sister of one of the characters Holmes suspects of having something to do with the case, and thus far Watson has mainly noticed how pretty she is, although to his credit he does touch on her penchant for urging Henry Baskerville away from the moors and her curious unwillingness to respond to Henry's courting. But he has difficulty in seeing women as anything other than delicate creatures to be protected and loved. Plain and simple, the man is not gay, nor will he ever be gay, despite his love for Holmes, which I've always pictured as brotherly in nature.

Holmes, I also have difficulty picturing as gay because he's always so aloof. He doesn't crave lots of friends; one or two very good ones are all he really needs, and he's content with that lot in life. The treachery he sees in not a few women (i.e. Irene Adler, as well as the woman who poisoned three children for insurance money who's briefly mentioned in one of the earlier stories as an explanation for his indifference to women in general), plus his general assessment of their intellect and capacity for reason (neither of them good) all combine to make him celibate by choice rather than a lack of possibilities. I would imagine that he would have taken care of his physical needs when necessary by using a more high-end prostitute of sorts, since I don't think any man in that time would be totally celibate outside of choosing monkhood, but he doesn't have the same need to be in a relationship that Watson does. Above all though, I don't think he would EVER consider a relationship with another man; such a thing would be far too outside of the pale to be something attractive to him, I think.

You know, there's a later series of books by someone other than Conan Doyle who pairs Holmes up with a young lady; I've never read the stories, but I understand the first one is called something like "The Beekeeper's Apprentice" (referring to Watson claiming Holmes retired to Sussex to raise bees and work on his book setting down all his techniques). I'm sort of interested in checking those out maybe, but given that in those stories Holmes would be in his sixties at the very least, it would end of having a tint of "dirty old man" if he were to show any romantic interest in the girl in question.

You know, I am having the most fun with this discussion! It's been awesome to have someone to bounce my theories off of! :D
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:07 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beekee ... Apprentice

ITs the first in a series of books by Laurie R King that i too might pick up. ANd ah, yeah, reading thru the wiki breifly, i get a lot of a 'dirty old man holmes' vibe *chuckle*


I concre on both Watsons wandering eye towards the ladies and Holmes simple needs and natures s making neither candidate good for a gay relationship. Still, were Watson to be Dr Jane Watson (not sure how the army background would fit into that mind you, given the times), the romance would most likely have occurred, eventually, should Holmes have ever looked past 'her' singular problem of plumbing.

Remind me, when the weekend hits and my scanner is mine again, to post something. This little back and forth has been inspirational ^_^
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:54 pm

Ooooh, please do!! I'm excited now!!

Yeah, I can picture a Holmes and Watson relationship where Watson is female eventually perhaps getting sexual in nature, but not when it's two men. It's just not in their characters, despite what all the researchers seem to think.

You know, oddly enough I read a story where Holmes would appear to have been bisexual in a way; it was a story in that anthology I think I mentioned once, that had stories where the cases Holmes dealt with were supernatural in nature, or just really outside the pale in various ways. It was right after he'd escaped Moriarty and was written from Irene Adler's perspective; she heard of his "death" and came to the conclusion that he'd faked his death in some way I didn't follow, so she left her husband for a time with his blessing (he apparently thinking that she just needed a vacation) and traveled to Paris, where she found Holmes playing as a violinist in a play company. So she joined the chorus as a singer, met up with him, and realized that he'd faked his death and left England in order to avoid seeing Watson be happy with Mary Morstan, the implication being that had Holmes said anything, he and Watson might have had a more "intimate" relationship than otherwise known. Irene then took him back to her room, where he was, to quote the book, "inexpert enough to confirm my suspicions" (from which I infer that she thought Holmes was a virgin, or extremely inexperienced in sexual activity). The overall implication of the story is that Holmes is bisexual, attracted to men and women.

Not really sure I agree with that perspective, but the story was written well enough I suppose.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:32 pm

Would this anthology you mention happen to be the Improbable Adventuresof Sherlock Holmes by any chance? With, at least one version at least has, a cover featuring a rather convincing painting (drawing? of as Dr. Watson looking remarkably Jude Law, with Sherlock looking far less like Robert Downey JR in comparison?

If so, good book. I've read through most of it, and found the short stories to be mostly quite enjoyable. There was one in particular, involving an insect like being that was pretty fun. An alternative expatiation for the Whitechapel Murders of Jack the Ripper, IIRC.


And here is the little sketch (I emphasize sketch, because its messy) that our conversations have inspired:

Dr Watson, I presume
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:54 am

Ermmm...

Can't see it. Can you email it to me?
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:01 am

Really> Weeeird. The little link should work :(


pm me your email and I'll send it to you. i don't think it will be too big a file.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:10 pm

:doh:

I didn't realize it was a link!!! :oops:

I likes!

And yes, to answer your question from before that I ignored because I was stupid, that is the book in question. Most of the stories in there are pretty cool; I also enjoyed that one where in essence Holmes was "the Ripper" because he was trying to kill the alien parasites that had taken up host in the prostitutes. I also liked the one where Holmes was the criminal and Moriarty was the good guy in an alternate universe that Watson stumbled upon inadvertently, and then the one where the whole time you assume that the story is being told by Watson about Holmes and in the end you find out it's actually being told about Moriarty by Moran! Good stuff; plus, that story is in the vein of Lovecraft, since the beings from Ry'leh were in charge throughout the world. Thought that was cool.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:10 pm

Hehehehe yeah, it was a really enjoyable collection of stories. I want to say at least one of them was a Mary Russel story, or at least ,told from that characters perspecive, instead of from Watson or Holmes point of view. There are still one or two I haven't read yet , towards the end of the book, but on the whole I liked it.

Also enjoyed House of Silk. Can't remember if I've mentioned it already in this thread, but its the latest 'Holmes' novel, this one officially sanctioned by the Doyle Estate (it's written by Anthony Horowitz).

And I';m glad you liked the picture, since its all your fault it exists ;)

I may have to do more of Dr Jane Watson in the future.
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:41 am

Maybe I'll get inspired to write a story about it. *chuckles*

For the time being though, I plan to concentrate on my story, which is coming along nicely; I'm at the point when the crime Holmes and Annika will be working on together has been done, and the crime itself will be partially responsible for the inevitable pairing up of Holmes and Annika with the Criminal Minds team. I had to come up with a reason why Holmes would be content working with a team of people rather than on his own; I figured getting him interested in largely serial cases (whether they be rape, murder, arson, or otherwise) would be sufficient, since he obviously wouldn't be able to merely content himself with whatever case may come his way. Given that crime scenes would be much more strictly controlled in our time versus his, working within the law enforcement group would be far more conducive to allowing him to keep working. It's not like he'd be able to just waltz in and do whatever the hell he wanted any longer. *L*
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby brutus87 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:37 am

Yeah, that would kind of be one of the largest obsitcles to Holmes being Holmes in the future: Police Procedure. Of course, I also think that on the whole, he would be far more pleased, I think, with modern police, since they do spend some much time using the science he helped to create and prosper: forensics!


As for me writing? Heh...probably never happen. I have so many started and never finished stories, they could be a book in and of themselves
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Re: SQUEEEEEE!!!!!!!!

Postby Bri » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:27 am

Yeah; that's why I figured get him to work WITH the FBI rather than set him up as a private detective; I plan to make him a consultant rather than an agent, so he'll still have some latitude in regards to his actions to solve crimes, but he'll have the shield of official support. At first he and Annika will work within the Terrorism unit, since that's where she's based, but I planned to have her be friends with Reid, from the BAU (they would have gone through the Academy together), and when they need to get a new person in the unit, Reid suggests Annika to Hotch, but Annika won't come without Holmes, and in the process they have to tell Hotch and Reid about Holmes. They'll be the only two who know for quite some time though, that Holmes is really Sherlock Holmes. I'm not sure yet how I plan to let the whole group (minus J.J.; she'll be out of the picture in order to salvage her relationship with her husband and take care of her son, which is why they wanted to get a new group member) know about Holmes, or even if I will, but I can picture it happening in a few ways.
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